Editors Note: The following is a long, rambling discussion on criminal and civil liabilities facing various corporations. As I wrote it and I am not a lawyer, it isn't going to be accurate at many points. It will also probably be fairly dull if you don't really give a shit about who can get sued and why and what my take on all of it is. If this doesn't sound entertaining at all to you, let me suggest This Article as a much better alternative to reading this post.
Last night I was stuck at an orientation for four hours. Two hours of that time was listening to someone that was wholly unqualified to discuss alcohol and the dangers of serving too much to patrons at the ballpark. They do this because if someone drinks too much at a game and then gets in their car and drives away and crashes into someone, the stadium is a likely candidate to get sued. It's an odd thing, that.
Bars, on a nightly basis, serve people until they are far too drunk to drive and some of those people still get in their cars and speed off. Of those people, some are destined to get into an accident, to kill someone when their car rams another head on. It's a tragedy whenever it happens, I agree with that sentiment. What I don't agree with is that it is the bars fault. They have a service that specializes in vice, they sold their wares, laws exist on the books that say that you can't just stop someone from getting into their car and driving away. Private citizens don't have the right to just stop other people from getting into their own cars and committing a crime. They have every right to call the cops and say they think someone is about to drive drunk. But that isn't necessarily their responsibility. This is something that has been bugging me since that orientation. I know that legally the bars can get sued, but at the same time no one sues them because usually they don't have enough money to make it worth going after them. The big venues, stadiums, ballparks, etc. have the money so people go after them. It doesn't matter if the person had just a couple beers at the game and it was drinking at a tailgate party or somewhere near the game that got them wasted. They were at the game, its the owner of the stadiums fault. This is the same mentality that made it so that only plastic bottles were served in stadiums. Some morons threw bottles at an ump and instead of getting pissed at them they get pissed at the conglomerate that allowed them to have glass bottles. It's such a strange world we live in. I'm not really promoting that the idea that we should change the laws at all, but it does make one wonder. How far can this idea go? When we hold someone personally responsible for their actions (i.e. driving drunk) but then hold a corporation liable in civil court, aren't we in effect saying that everyone that had any part of serving alcohol to someone that did something incredibly stupid whilst under the influence of that alcohol is responsible? The low-wage worker that handed them the beer, the truck drivers that delivered the beer to the stadium, the brewery that made the beer? Where's the line?
If I ate at McDonalds everyday and as a result lived my life with increasingly clogged arteries and massive amounts of fat, is it McDonalds fault when I have a heart attack? Is it the owner of the individual franchise that knew me as a regular customer but served me every time I came in? Is it the bigger corporation who, in order to increase profits, allows for cheaper and cheaper, and thus less healthy, ingredients? Or is it the farmers that sell the meat to them at lower prices because it isn't up to the standard of beef other restaurants demand? Then where can you go with it, how far back? The cows have to eat, have to drink, have to have land in a state somewhere. That farmer, did he go to a bank to get a loan when he lost half his herd one year? Is the bank culpable? Is some overseas investor in that bank liable because he has a large stake in that bank? I know this sounds ridiculous, but I wonder about these things sometimes. There is a big difference, I know, to selling someone alcohol at a stadium and then not noticing that he got in his car and drove off than playing Six Degrees of Separation to liability.
I guess what my problem is is that I want to be held responsible for my own actions and no one elses. If I fuck up, get myself in a heap of trouble, I can see why I might have the impulse to want to pass the buck. People have laughed at the so-called "Twinkie Defense" claiming the Twinkies diminished his brain capacity and lead to mood swings. But the fact that most people are aware of the phrase "Twinkie defense" if not the actual arguments in the case means that we have had this idea of blaming the big, bad faceless corporations for our own shortcomings and crimes.
Often I want to rally against corporations. There are many reasons to hate them. They do whatever they can to make more money for themselves and they don't really care who they hurt in the process. But I want to take them on for what they have done. If they are dumping illegally, if they are paying workers less than what they earn, if they build a two story off shore and throw the words "World Wide Headquarters" across the face of the building so they don't have to pay taxes in the US even though they do all their business in the US, they should be held accountable for that. And its not like I don't think they should be held accountable for selling things that really are dangerous. I can get behind suing tobacco companies, for example, even though I smoke, for a variety of reasons. They produce a dangerous product and when they market it to children or try to alter studies to make it seem less dangerous, they should be sued. I think what I'm having a problem with is these acute situations. If it came out that tobacco companies could reduce the risk of cancer from smoking their products but just didn't because it would make the cost of a pack go up a few extra cents, they should be held accountable. If, however, someone fell asleep in a luxury hotel with a cigarette burning in their hand and burned the place down, that is that persons mistake. The cigarette, though it may have been the real thing that started the fire, was not put into that persons hand, into that room, and the person wasn't lulled to sleep by the cigarette, so this would be an acute event. A one time thing that is solely the person who fell asleep fault. I realize that my examples aren't great, but they are meant to illustrate my point.
It could be said that in a society we are all our brothers keeper. That we have to look out for one another to make sure that one person isn't going to do something to upset the status quo. When a company has a longer reach, they have more responsibility to watch out even more. Yet we often do forget about them, letting them get away with things that a smaller business would never be able to get away with. But we also have no problem pointing our fingers at them whenever someone does something stupid. But we only point the finger when we think there is something in it for us. That we can get some money out of them. That's why we don't find them criminally liable. They are just being sued because they have deeper pockets. And its incredibly hypocritical. It's the same reason why doctors have to pay so much in malpractice insurance. They are going to make mistakes, but people don't have to have a reason to sue someone. They say they were mistreated and they can sue. Even if they don't have a real case it gets to a point where it is cheaper to settle than to fight it in court. The perception is that doctors and hospitals can afford to get sued, so people go after them. Now, this brings in a different set of arguments about the courts and the practice of medicine that I don't really want to get into. But the point is that if doctors were all making minimum wage and hospitals run on donations alone, we wouldn't hear about doctors getting sued. For our society to really work, for people to really have a reason to look out for others and make sure that we are all doing our own small part to keep societies wheels in motion, we have to all be equally culpable. The mega-corporations should be just as likely to be sued as the small businesses. If I am walking down the street in downtown Reno and see someone who is clearly intoxicated get behind the wheel of a car I should be just as responsible for calling the police as the bartenders of the bar he just left. If there is to be any justice in the world, then we all have to take equal responsibility.
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6 comments:
Hmmm, this is a lot to digest and I'll probably have a more intelligent little something to add once I've thought about it, but for now all I can say is that I LOVE the nutritional facts that MacDonald's now puts on all their food. I think it's one of the awesomest developments to come along in the seamy underworld we call "fast food," and you could, if you wanted, make the argument that that came along as a direct result of those crazy nutbags who were all like "My daily dose of Big Macs made me a fat heart attack machine!" A positive spin.
That's a decent point about the mcdonalds food. I do wonder, though, how much of that was lawsuit and how much was FDA. I mean, since I was a wee child I remember that they had the nutrition facts up on the wall in most fast food places. Occasionally some mother would walk in with three children, look at the poster of nutrition facts, sudder, and then order some happy meals with a look of defeat in her eyes.
But then if it is the result of lawsuits, then it would fall into the catagory that I want the lawsuits to go into. I was trying to make an argument that not all lawsuits were in fact frivolus, but that some had merit. It's one thing for someone to knowingly eat such unhealthy food and then get pissed when they are declared unhealthy, but another if they had no idea, and wouldn't have had access to information to give them an idea, of how bad it really was for them. On one hand that might seem like common sense, on the other hand it would seem like common sense twenty years ago that a fast food burger was about as healthy/unhealth as, say, a patty melt from a local diner. The average person may not have known that there was such a significant difference in the ingrediants that made the fast food burger so much worse for them. Though they may have been tipped off by the price...
I don't think that I can really come up with a clear cut answer as to what I want to see in regards to cival suits. I want to have people held accountable but I also recognize that sometimes people who may not seem accountable at first actually are. One of my favorite movies is "Runaway Jury". I'm not sure why it is one of my favorite movies. I mean, I can't point to one thing and say "yes, this is awesome!" but between Dustin Hoffman and Gene Hackman and John Cusack and that hot chick from Constantine and some other movies I just sort of fell in love with it and watched it a bunch of times. Anyway, that whole movie (also Jeremy Piven, as a young idealistic lawyer) is about suing a gun company for allowing the sales of guns that killed people. And I am right there with them and I'm like "yeah! Take that evil empire of gun runners! bwaha!" The movie makes a solid point as to why the gun company is responsible. That, in that case, the gun was purchased illegally and the gun company knew that was going on and didn't try to stop it. That they were being completely irresponislbe because it allowed them to make more money. So, yeah, I think they should have gotten sued and they should have lost. But I try to seperate myself from that. I am no big fan of guns. I mean, don't get me wrong, throw a bunch of guns into a movie and some moderately talented actor using them and I'll probably go out and buy a ticket, but in reality I don't like them. I could go on about why I dislike guns so, but I think that I have enough to say on that for another blog, which I might write now if I still don't think I can fall asleep.
Anyway, I guess when you boil it down to its core I feel like some people are taking advantage of the fact that if they can in anyway connect a crime commited independatly from anything else to a large corporation they will just go after that corporation. And this is arbitrary and hypocritical because they do not go after the small people that don't have the amount of money that makes it worth it to go after them. I'm not saying people should start suing small businesses, but it just isn't fair to only go after the big guys. I feel that the big guys, though, can handle it and so I wouldn't be jumping to their defense except that what I was saying in the post, the "where does it end?" was starting to bug me. How long before the legal system finds a way to go after pretty much anyone for anything if there is just the smallest link to it? I don't want to see that happen. I want people who have been wronged to get whats owed to them but I don't want random people to get attacked in court for something they had no control over.
What I want is a better system of determining civil liability. One that is straightforward and yet comprehensive and doesn't allow for anyone to get a settlement against them just because they may have, in some small way, contributed without knowledge of that contribution. I have no idea how this would work, I can't think of a law that would make this a reality. And really I think it is a matter more for the courts. I think that if courts had a less broad spectrum for determining harm to a person then it would immediately lower the amount of frivolus and unwarrented lawsuits. But this is a debate that has been going on forever and I don't see it ending anytime soon. I just wanted to put my two cents in for right now. If this blog survives for ten years I may come back and think "man, I was way off back then." But I felt like rambling about it and I guess I have a lot of opinions on it.
You can get in trouble as a citizen if you watch an obviously intoxicated person enter a vehicle without stopping them. Good samaritan law. I don't think you offered much in the way of an arguement here you have good points but no facts really. Regardless of your opinion ultimately each case is given consideration and that is the beauty in our system. It may seem trivial to you but no more trivial than this blog. Welcome to America, this is how it works. I think this attempts to be intelligent but it isn't. Really Matt are you so bored you have been poking through people trunks, hunting down IP address and breaking into email accounts? I'd be careful being so critical of others. Be careful of your own hypocrisy.
Well anoynymus, you make a good point. Wait, I meant to say completely incomprehensible point.
I don't mind a discenting opinion, but you are going to write one, it might help to actually read the post.
And in what world does me debating the merits of lawsuits in our current system make me a hypocrite and hacker?
Wow, that was weird.
Yeah, my money is sort of on a drunken Mike, as whoever it was knew my real first name and about this blog and it was 11 in the morning and made no sense. That plus a graveyard schedule and I think I'm onto something...
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